Beyond Sunday Worship

Worship Podcast

#392: Spiritual Formation, Art, And The Beauty And The Tragedy of Worship Music with John Mark McMillan

Throughout church history there has always been an interesting tension between creativity and functionality. What is more important? Creating beautiful things or getting a certain message across? What is more important to worship? Right theology or beautiful art that displays the glory of God?

Do we need better theology in our songs or more honesty? We intuitively know this is a tension to manage, not a problem to solv  e. No one would argue that theology doesn’t matter. But has our pursuit of rightness caused us to lose some imagination? Some humanity?

Has our church culture fixation on efficiency, productivity, and uniformity formed us to forget the mystery and wonder of singing together as people?

My guest today is John Mark McMillan. John Mark is a brilliant artist, singer-songwriter, and lyricist. He has existed at this interesting intersection of artistry that most people don’t understand while also writing some of the most popular worship songs of the last 30 years.

We talk about a lot of things. We talk worship. We talk church. We talk spiritually formative practices. We dive into guitar tone, abuse in the church, and the real story behind the infamous line, “sloppy wet kiss.”

Topics Covered:

  • What JMM loves about life right now
  • Reading and listening to records
  • Why it’s helpful to listen to music different than the music you make
  • How worship music is uniquely positioned to serve our society
  • How we’ve missed the point of worship music
  • The tension between creativity and serving our congregations
  • Why you should make art for yourself and not an audience
  • How JMM created the guitar tone on “Daylight”
  • Why art is never safe
  • Spiritual formation habits and practices
  • Viewing church as a spiritual practice
  • How to process abuse and injustice in the church
  • The story behind “sloppy wet kiss”

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by dwell bible app. In our busy lives finding quiet moments to read the Bible can be challenging. I get it. Traditional, reading focused apps demand undivided attention.

You have to carve out specific time and space in your day but this also means missing opportunities to engage with scripture in your car or during workouts, or while you’re just doing stuff around the house.

And that’s where Dwell Bible app comes in, offering a unique way to engage with Scripture. Unlike reading apps, Dwell is audio-based. It allows the truth of Scripture to be read over you throughout your day.

Imagine hearing the Bible while driving to work or running in the park or cooking dinner. You don’t always need to find a quiet corner.

The word is with you wherever you are, filling your every day, mundane moments. So give Dwell a shot— it’s a no-brainer.

You’ll get to experience a whole new way to connect with God through the Bible. To get started listening, head to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for up to 50% off today!

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

#391: Pastoring Border Patrol Agents And Immigrants with Evan Wickham

I’m not a Lead Pastor, but I can’t imagine anything more difficult than pastoring in today’s political climate. We feel that these days are unique, but in reality they are not. History has much to teach us.

Occasionally I like to bring Lead Pastors onto the podcast to talk about how they’re navigating cultural issues. My guest today is Evan Wickham. Evan is the older brother of Phil Wickham, also a worship leader and songwriter, and the pastor of Park Hill Church in San Diego, California. Here’s what’s interesting: In his very church, he has a Christian Border Patrol Agent and Immigrant families, both trying to make sense of the times in which we live. Evan’s perspective on how to pastor faithfully is enlightening. What does faithful pastoring look like? How do partisan politics compromise the gospel? Should our Sunday services address the latest issues in the news or should we just stick to the gospel? Is it possible to pastor from the political center?

We can’t escape politics, no matter how much we would like to try. Politics effect how we live together. The Bible is a political book.

Conversations like this rarely make anyone happy but faithful leaders need to step into the tension. Don’t miss the end of the conversation where we talk about worship, songwriting, and the presence of God in our churches. Evan’s challenge were beautiful and surprising.

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#389: The Tension Between Organizational Progress and Pastoral Care Within The Church with Michael Olson

One of the practices that I believe is important for the church in America is to regularly evaluate and interrogate the systems we operate by. What can often pass as biblical is actually just business. What we believe to be Christian is actually just American. When we evaluate the systems we are shaped by, we are more prepared to pivot when our systems hurt people. When the efficiency of our churches miss what the Bible calls us to.

Is it all bad? Of course not. Is it all broken? Of course not. The church imperfect. We are imperfect. I am far from perfect. But if we don’t have the courage to ask questions we can focus more on organizational progress than we do pastoral care.

My conversation today is with my good friend Michael Olson. Michael is an author, musician, and worship leader. He’s a recording artists. He traveled the world playing drums for Michael W Smith. Over the last 16 years he’s led worship at two of the fastest growing churches in America. He’s also written a beautiful new memoir called Daddy Set The Church on Fire: A Journey Toward Restoration.

At the heart of this book is the reality that Jesus is making all things new. The church is broken. We are broken. This world is broken. But if we have eyes to see, there is redemption all around.

This is a conversation for you if you follow Jesus. If you’ve been hurt by the church. If you haven’t been hurt by the church. If you’re a worship leader and feel like a cog in an endless machine of efficiency. If you feel broken by the weight of loss and pain. We talk all about it. 

Topics Covered:

  • Developing a theology of suffering
  • The highs and lows of growing up Pentecostal
  • What we can learn about Spirit and Truth from Eugene Peterson
  • The diversity of the body of Christ within the attractional mega church, reformed church, and Pentecostal church
  • The tension between organizational progress and pastoral care
  • The story behind Michael’s book title, “Daddy Set The Church on Fire”

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor:

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

#388: What Native Culture And Indigenous Theology Can Teach Us About Following Jesus with Terry Wildman

Part of what I love to do with this podcast is highlight some voices that often get overlooked. Cultures that are often pushed to the margins of influence in the Church but have so much to offer us.

Today I’m speaking with Terry Wildman. Terry is the Lead Translator of the First Nations Version of the Bible. Currently there is a New Testament and Psalms and Proverbs available. And the Old Testament is currently being developed.

Terry is a man with native ancestry who grew up in Michigan, was saved during the Jesus Movement, and became pastor early on in his life. What’s fascinating about Terry’s story is he wasn’t exposed to the history of indigenous people until later in life.

That knowledge led him down a path of decolonizing his faith, becoming a missionary to native peoples,  and learning how to disentangle what is the way of Jesus and what is not.

This is a deep conversation. Some hard topics. Difficult history. But a challenge we all need. 

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