When I was a young teenager, I heard a traveling evangelist say the best form of therapy was speaking in tongues. The preacher at the time was criticizing modern therapy as unchristian and, ultimately unnecessary. We don’t need to sit in rooms and endless unpack our problems and our past trauma. What people need more than anything – he said – is the presence of God.

I understand the sentiment. I love the presence of God. I believe there is tremendous value in spiritual disciplines, practices, and experiences with God. But what happens to our formation as people when we are trained to be skeptical of therapy? How would our relationships be different, our marriages be different, our relationship with God be different if we learned to feel at home in the body God gave us? Where we didn’t feel the need to set aside our humanity for performative piety? What if therapy is a gift from God? 

I’m not a therapist or an expert on therapy. That’s why I’m talking to Kate Willsey. Kate is a therapist and coach who specializes in religious trauma. She unpacks the tensions inherent at the intersection of the nervous system, theology, and spiritual formation. I’ve been following Kate’s work on social media and have been so blessed by her work. And I thought you would as well.

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I remember my days as a young worship leader. There was always this unspoken tension between being performative and pastoral. Is it my job as a worship leader to provide a powerful, exciting experience or to guide them in a healthy practice for their spiritual formation? When we say worship was really good this week, what do we mean? If you lead worship, you know the tension. When you put a singer or musician on a stage, under the lights, it is by definition a performance. Performance is not a bad thing,but we, at the same time feel uncomfortable talking about performance when it comes to worship. If you surveyed your congregation, likely most would scoff at the idea of worship as a performance. And yet, we have adopted performative tools in local church ministry. So what do we do?

One of the worship leaders that helped me navigate these tensions early on was Paul Baloche. If you don’t know the name Paul Baloche, you likely know his songs. Open The Eyes of My Heart, Above All, or Hosanna (Praise is Rising) have been staple songs in churches all over the world, and that’s only scratching the surface of the sheer number of songs he’s written. But what I love most about Paul is not his songwriting prowess but the fact that he’s truly a normal guy like the rest of us. In a marketplace of worship that has often been defined by what is trending, cool, and exciting, Paul has been faithfully leading the church and coaching worship leaders on how to be themselves and lead with authenticity.

Paul is no stranger to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. And it was refreshing to catch up and talk all things worship. Even do some reminiscing about earlier eras of worship leading in the 80s and 90s.

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The idea of worship is simple. Uncomplicated. When you think about it, worship is ascribing worth to someone or something.

As people of faith, we ascribe to God the worth, praise and adoration that He is due.

But worship that intersects with industry and organizations is inherently complicated. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That the worship industry is wrong or all mega church worship is unbiblical.

What it means that it’s complicated and it’s worth the wrestle.

Today’s guest is Anna Golden – a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. Anna is a worship leader at Shoreline City Church in Dallas and has a wonderful new worship album out called Just Us.

My favorite song on the project is called Uncomplicated – and that’s what I wanted to talk with Anna about.

In what ways have we complicated worship individually and corporately? What are the current tensions within the worship industry? We discuss tools and tips for worship leaders. And as a bonus, we both talk about our background as homeschoolers raised in the church and how that has shaped who we are today.

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Throughout church history there has always been an interesting tension between creativity and functionality. What is more important? Creating beautiful things or getting a certain message across? What is more important to worship? Right theology or beautiful art that displays the glory of God?

Do we need better theology in our songs or more honesty? We intuitively know this is a tension to manage, not a problem to solv  e. No one would argue that theology doesn’t matter. But has our pursuit of rightness caused us to lose some imagination? Some humanity?

Has our church culture fixation on efficiency, productivity, and uniformity formed us to forget the mystery and wonder of singing together as people?

My guest today is John Mark McMillan. John Mark is a brilliant artist, singer-songwriter, and lyricist. He has existed at this interesting intersection of artistry that most people don’t understand while also writing some of the most popular worship songs of the last 30 years.

We talk about a lot of things. We talk worship. We talk church. We talk spiritually formative practices. We dive into guitar tone, abuse in the church, and the real story behind the infamous line, “sloppy wet kiss.”

Topics Covered:

• What JMM loves about life right now
• Reading and listening to records
• Why it’s helpful to listen to music different than the music you make
• How worship music is uniquely positioned to serve our society
• How we’ve missed the point of worship music
• The tension between creativity and serving our congregations
• Why you should make art for yourself and not an audience
• How JMM created the guitar tone on “Daylight”
• Why art is never safe
• Spiritual formation habits and practices
• Viewing church as a spiritual practice
• How to process abuse and injustice in the church
• The story behind “sloppy wet kiss”

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible App
• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• 1996 by Ryuichi Sakamato
• Playing the Piano by Ryuichi Sakamato
• The Way to Love by Anthony de Mello
• Awareness by Anthony de Mello
• How Music Works by David Byrne

Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by dwell bible app. In our busy lives finding quiet moments to read the Bible can be challenging. I get it. Traditional, reading focused apps demand undivided attention.

You have to carve out specific time and space in your day but this also means missing opportunities to engage with scripture in your car or during workouts, or while you’re just doing stuff around the house.

And that’s where Dwell Bible app comes in, offering a unique way to engage with Scripture. Unlike reading apps, Dwell is audio-based. It allows the truth of Scripture to be read over you throughout your day.

Imagine hearing the Bible while driving to work or running in the park or cooking dinner. You don’t always need to find a quiet corner.

The word is with you wherever you are, filling your every day, mundane moments. So give Dwell a shot— it’s a no-brainer.

You’ll get to experience a whole new way to connect with God through the Bible. To get started listening, head to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for up to 50% off today!

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.